Media for Peace #4 Interkulturelle Perspektiven im Journalismus

00:00:00: Journalismus der Frieden ermöglicht. Das ist Media for Peace, ein Podcast des Media Lab Bayern.

00:00:12: Hallo, wie geht's dir? Wie ist es dir gegangen? Ich bin Sabrina Harper und berichte für dich vom

00:00:18: Media for Peace Projekt und wir schauen gemeinsam, wie Innovation und deeskalierende Journalismus

00:00:24: zusammenfinden. Beim Media for Peace Projekt kollaborieren wir ja international. Fellows aus

00:00:30: Afghanistan, dem lieber non-Südamerika und Deutschland arbeiten gemeinsam an einem Produkt,

00:00:35: das einen friedensförrenden Journalismus stärkt. Die Fellows hatte ich euch ja in Folge 1 schon

00:00:41: kurz vorgestellt und heute habe ich einen davon, nämlich Ali Musafi aus Afghanistan zum Interview

00:00:47: da. Ali hat seine Kindheit in Afghanistan verbracht und ist dort aufgewachsen. 2021 wanderte

00:00:54: er nach Pakistan aus und nun ist er für ein paar Monate in München. Eine Sache, an der er aktuell

00:01:01: arbeitet, gemeinsam mit drei weiteren Fellows, ist der sogenannte "Idea Button". Das sind Knöpfe,

00:01:07: die im öffentlichen Raum angebracht werden, um die schweigende Mehrheit zu mehr Partizipation zu

00:01:13: befähigen, also dass auch die ihre Meinung sagen. Erst dachte ich, wie soll das denn in einem Land wie

00:01:19: Afghanistan funktionieren? Was hat das für einen Mehrwert? Doch Ali hat mich eines Besseren belehrt.

00:01:25: Media for Peace - Insights

00:01:28: Hallo Ali, welcome to the podcast for Media for Peace. You are a fellow of that project and you

00:01:35: are working on it for a couple of weeks now. You are originally from Afghanistan, but you are in

00:01:42: Munich for a couple of months now. So how long are you going to stay here? I hope longer. But first,

00:01:50: hey Sabrina, thank you for having me here. After I enrolled in the fellowship programme, I asked the

00:01:58: programme manager and people in charge to send me some invitation to play for some visa. I moved

00:02:05: from Pakistan to Munich less than one month ago. Now I'm here. But originally you're from Afghanistan,

00:02:13: maybe you can give us a little look inside how living in Afghanistan is right now. I raised in

00:02:21: Afghanistan, I educated there from elementary school until the end of my master's degree. I started a

00:02:29: job as a university lecturer, a computer science lecturer there. I spent about 20 plus years of my life there.

00:02:36: After the situation changed, I decided to bring a change into my life. Maybe I should think

00:02:46: bigger with a bigger vision. When I moved to Pakistan, I left my job, I resigned from my job and I put

00:02:52: all my attitude and vision to Germany to find a job or any kind of programme that I can enroll myself to

00:03:00: that programme and use that opportunity to visit Germany. So und das ist where media for peace comes

00:03:07: in? Yeah, it's interesting for me that I applied for the last hours, maybe two or three hours until

00:03:14: the deadline. The person that sent me the link, hey, this is a programme if you want to apply,

00:03:20: you are a tick person, so they need a developer there if you are interested in.

00:03:25: And then suddenly I realised, okay, I studied computer science and I was a lot busy with giving

00:03:32: advices on systems, on architectural design of software systems. Okay, what if I can use my

00:03:40: technical knowledge in a programme that can be more beneficial to people, especially for people in need,

00:03:48: like in Afghanistan. Es ist besonders, wenn ich das Programm gehört habe, die auf

00:03:54: Konflikten fokussiert, wie Afghanistan und Lebanon. Ich war sehr motiviert.

00:04:00: Du hast für die Media for Peace geschehen, du bist jetzt Teil der Teamfamilien. Es sind

00:04:05: ca. 11 Menschen. Du hast eine Lösung für die Unterstützung von dem peace-promotenden Journalismus.

00:04:15: So, hast du ever had some kind of touch points before with journalism at all?

00:04:22: As a person who raised in a country of war and conflict, in that kind of country every single

00:04:28: citizen is kind of a journalist, but I didn't think of that from a technical perspective.

00:04:33: At the end, for example, a couple of years ago, I started listening to news or watching the news on

00:04:41: TV because I was totally bombarded by all the bad news and everything like that.

00:04:49: So, I hated somehow the news. So, when I heard about the peace-promoting journalism,

00:04:56: actually it was a really new idea for me and it was a really new concept for me to

00:05:02: explore more into this field. So, it was a new, you know, it opened a new window of exploration

00:05:11: for me to go into, especially a different background that I had. For example, I told you that I am from

00:05:18: a technical background like computer science and this is going to be a peace-promoting platform.

00:05:25: So, in that moment something just flashed in my mind that, okay, you are going to have some fun

00:05:33: things to do in this program, as well as you are there as an efficient guy. So, yeah, that was the

00:05:42: time that I really decided to participate in the program. I know you're still developing about

00:05:48: some stuff. What's it going to be? Because you never know at the beginning if you go for

00:05:53: innovation, but for you who has lived in Afghanistan, what is really important for the people over there to

00:06:03: to have? Is it like more like a security aspect? I can imagine how journalists are working over there.

00:06:12: What are you thinking about if you think about some peace-promoting stuff in an Afghanistan situation?

00:06:20: I think it would be really helpful in a country which is really struggling through problems right now.

00:06:29: It would be really helpful to, we can provide a tool or a platform or a stage for those people

00:06:38: to share their voices without being feared or without being threatened by people,

00:06:45: but in a constructive way, not in an aggressive or offensive way. So, that's the thing that we are

00:06:53: focusing on right now, while we are developing the different prototypes and we are considering those

00:07:00: features to have in such kind of platforms. I think that's a really important and efficient

00:07:07: tool for people like in Afghanistan, especially for the younger generation,

00:07:12: which really are hustling to talk to the other people around the world, to share the facts that's

00:07:19: what is happening or to resolve any conflict by conversation. I know that right now you are

00:07:28: thinking about like a button in public, where people can talk their opinions or their thoughts

00:07:37: in it to some kind of topic. So, maybe you can give us an idea what this is about.

00:07:45: It's a cool idea, I think, to bring quick, accessible and usable tool for those who want to

00:07:54: make dialogues and conversation. And actually right now we are working on some basic stuff,

00:08:03: but we hope that we can advance it to the next level. But first we have to be sure that

00:08:11: this idea is going to work. We have to take care of different aspects and after that we should

00:08:18: provide the tools to people. The idea is to give the stage or give the microphone to everyone who

00:08:24: wants to talk, who wants to share idea or opinion about a specific or a trending topic,

00:08:32: especially in a conflict zone. If I can give you a vision or an illustration of the tool,

00:08:39: it's going to be, for example, you are waiting to cross the street, okay, in front of a red light

00:08:47: or you are waiting to cross that street or I don't know, you are in the supermarket,

00:08:53: you are waiting in the line to pay for your grocery stuff. And you see a button that's with some

00:09:00: proposed title or trending topics that you are interested to talk about. So you just press

00:09:08: the button and you share your idea about it. And then if you want to have more engagement

00:09:15: onto that topic, maybe then you can install some apps to access to those other opinions by other

00:09:24: people or journalists can use these recordings to create some journalistic pieces or the podcast

00:09:33: link. We are doing right now and share it to other people. So if I think about social media

00:09:40: like Twitter or something, you write it down, but there's a lot of hate speech and stuff. So

00:09:47: if I think about Lebanon, for example, where there are those different types of groups when it

00:09:54: comes to political parties and stuff. And if I just push that button and say I don't like this

00:10:00: party or this party sucks or I just gave some fake information in there, what to do about that

00:10:07: point? Have you already considered what to do? This kind of negative thought and as you said,

00:10:14: hate speech is of course we have thought about it a lot to how we can prevent that kind of

00:10:21: negativity in such kind of platforms. For example, we thought, okay, how about if we can

00:10:29: implement artificial intelligence or AI to recognize such kind of hate speech and then

00:10:36: automatically stop those opinions from being stored into the database. Or maybe we can involve

00:10:45: some moderators or people to listen to those things or filter those hate speech and negative

00:10:53: thoughts and just delete it from the system to not be insured to the public. Because this is a

00:11:01: platform or a tool that can be used by anybody, for example, maybe over 16 or 18 years old until

00:11:08: the age range that we can imagine. So it's a public thing. Of course you have to consider it.

00:11:14: I don't want to be that detailed because it's an idea right now that you are prototyping and

00:11:21: bottom line is to get people into dialogues. Yes. Is this right? We are trying to provide a format

00:11:29: for a dialogue to make more engagement, to make more participation from people and to give them

00:11:39: the stage to talk about things, especially for those silent majority, which are somehow hindered

00:11:46: by different aspects in the community that they don't want to talk about topics or anything.

00:11:53: So we kind of trying to influence this normal conversation and normal dialogue between people

00:12:01: to talk about things. Why is dialogue so important for that context, peace-oriented journalism?

00:12:10: If you want to have a constructive community, so you have to have the pupil's opinion in that.

00:12:16: It means you cannot govern or you cannot rule a society without hearing about the society or

00:12:24: without receiving feedback about it, especially for younger generation, because they have to share

00:12:32: their opinion. Both sides have to listen, but if I think about I'm a woman and if I would be in

00:12:39: Afghanistan and I would push some kind of button to give an opinion and I would say girls need to go

00:12:46: to school. That could bring me in a really bad situation right now at the moment. So I'm thinking

00:12:58: about how to deal with such a situation. People are going to talk about a topic that is automatically

00:13:07: maybe generated by the system or specified by some journalists or somebody else. But the thing is,

00:13:15: those topics have to be more concentrated in a constructive way, not in an aggressive way.

00:13:22: Okay, yes, of course girls in Afghanistan have the right or must go to school, but there should be

00:13:29: a way to convince the government. And what is the best way to do that? The best way for me is to go

00:13:37: not in a political way. We should go for maybe in a fubens way. Let the girls speak. Let them

00:13:47: share the pain in the future. For example, if you are not allowing girls to go to school right now,

00:13:54: maybe in the next 10 years there is no educated woman in that country, especially in the medical

00:14:02: side. For example, there is no doctors in the next 10 years. And in a country, in an Islamic

00:14:09: country like Afghanistan, which men don't like to a man or a male doctor visit their woman,

00:14:17: so what would be the situation in the next 10 years? These kind of things have to be shared

00:14:23: with governments and with other people to change their mind about it. It's not right now that the

00:14:31: education is banned from girls just by the government. Okay, maybe some people in some

00:14:38: districts of Afghanistan also don't like to send their girls to school or university. But these

00:14:45: kind of states or these kind of platforms can bring this opportunity for people to listen to

00:14:53: those opinions and ideas and dialogues to change their mind in a constructive way. And then

00:15:01: after changing their mind and after visioning the future, so maybe their mind would be changed

00:15:08: and then everything would be fine. Okay, that makes sense to me. Thank you very much for that.

00:15:15: So in the media for peace context, there are a lot of different people from different parts of the

00:15:23: world having like a different kind of culture and different backgrounds like you are a developer,

00:15:31: there are some journalists, there is a UX/UI designer. How was it for you to be part of such a

00:15:40: diverse team so far? That's a great question. Maybe first I talk with myself, okay,

00:15:46: you are a developer so you have to be surrounded by developers. But also I thought, okay, what if

00:15:53: I couldn't make the chemistry with these other people from different countries with

00:16:00: different backgrounds. But I used this point as a challenge to tackle, to try to be merged

00:16:11: with these people, to share ideas and to receive feedback. Because it's really great. As a developer,

00:16:19: yes, I am okay with working on technical stuff. But maybe somebody who has mastered social skills

00:16:28: or communication skills, I can learn from him or her too. Or from a journalist from another part

00:16:36: Wir haben einen Journalist aus Kolumbia.

00:16:39: und es ist sehr wichtig, dass ich ein Tor und ein Vieles mehr bedeutet,

00:16:46: sharing a lot of interesting topic about country and she is sharing their experience through

00:16:45: the program. I think this diversity is the most exciting thing for me to experience.

00:16:53: So you have grown a lot from it?

00:16:57: Of course. I learned lots of stuff, especially from coaches, from colleagues, from everybody

00:17:06: and also from colleagues that are right now in Media Lab that I visited from plastic.

00:17:13: Yeah, it's a great experience.

00:17:15: Thanks for coming to the show and letting us know what you are thinking and what you're

00:17:20: doing.

00:17:21: Thank you so much for having me here and I hope this show also be another way of motivating

00:17:30: other people to participate in such kind of programs and use their skills to make the

00:17:37: world a better place to live.

00:17:38: As Ali already said, the Fellows are a very diverse group and exactly here comes Masya

00:17:44: Nashat in the game. He is a coach at Media for Peace and helps the Fellows from different

00:17:49: countries with the most different expertise to find a common language. That is not so

00:17:56: easy.

00:17:57: Media for Peace is very close to it.

00:18:01: Hello Masya. Nice to have you here. You are a coach at Media for Peace and helps the

00:18:08: Fellows to make their dream of a product that is inspiring to the people of the

00:18:14: world. You have accompanied the Fellows from the beginning. That means when they were

00:18:19: introduced and they are from Afghanistan, Lebanon, Germany and South America. And

00:18:27: of course it is a great challenge that everything comes together, goes together and you work

00:18:33: on a subject. You have different possibilities to bring something together. How did you

00:18:40: manage to bring the people, geographically, apart from each other, maybe culturally in

00:18:45: some ways, together?

00:18:48: Yes, first of all, thank you very much for being here and for sharing a little bit of

00:18:52: my perspective. You said, how did you manage to do that? I also ask myself the question

00:18:59: if I managed to do it. No, basically it is totally nice to work with people who

00:19:05: look at a topic with so many different perspectives, like that of peace and

00:19:11: nationalism and who then have such a topic that should and must have such a high

00:19:18: point of view in the present time. Their ideas, their backgrounds, their perspectives

00:19:26: and to get that on a speaker work together. And it's a lot of fun in the work with

00:19:33: the Fellows because not only is it a very constructive, a very productive

00:19:41: work together, but you also notice how they learn from each other and how these

00:19:49: different perspectives then lead to the fact that maybe such small inconsistencies

00:19:56: on the one hand are then improved again by the perspective of one of the other

00:20:03: Fellows or another fellow who is involved in the program. Seeing that makes a lot of

00:20:08: fun and I support where I can, on the one hand, take a look at the team,

00:20:15: who takes on what role, but also what cultural backgrounds meet there.

00:20:22: Of course, there are aspects that are always new. So today it was about the topic

00:20:30: how then also announcements within a team can work between the different

00:20:36: participants. And that's a super exciting topic because there are a lot of these

00:20:42: different cultural aspects to meet and to moderate and facilitate. It's not

00:20:47: so easy, but it's a lot of fun. I think that and another point that I haven't

00:20:52: seen yet is the Fellows from different areas. We have now heard a few

00:20:58: episodes, for example, Evalda Doreen, she is a UX/UI designer or a journalist in

00:21:04: Julia who was born in Germany and now lives in Lebanon. Or we have Eli, who is

00:21:11: more from the field of marketing and art director, who comes from the field of marketing.

00:21:17: These are also quite different areas that come together and it's not just

00:21:20: family for pizza, but also in the media industry here in Germany and all over the world.

00:21:25: Meet different actors and actors, also together. That's also a topic that

00:21:30: has a lot to do with innovation. And you are an innovation coach.

00:21:34: Maybe we'll start at the beginning and I'm going to ask you, in general,

00:21:39: how does innovation come into the media industry?

00:21:42: That's a very good question. And I just share my perspective.

00:21:49: Of course, I haven't learned innovation as such, but I'm more into it.

00:21:55: But my background is more that I look at a social scientific perspective

00:22:03: on innovation and then from a pedagogical didactic.

00:22:06: What is always coming up with the topic of innovation is that in the end it is about

00:22:12: getting to know each other with a new topic and then having the courage to

00:22:20: get to know each other, that you might not be an expert on this topic and

00:22:25: don't have much confidence, almost experience, and still overcome this topic.

00:22:36: That's a learning process and it's a self-leadership process.

00:22:39: In my work as an innovation coach and as a consultant for organizations

00:22:44: that want to take this topic, it's first of all about a space where people

00:22:51: feel safe, where they have the confidence that they can make mistakes

00:22:56: and that they can learn to do it and that they can bring their inspiration,

00:23:01: which they have somehow captured, into this organization in some way.

00:23:08: And that's for me in the end, what I'm dealing with.

00:23:11: How does innovation come about?

00:23:13: How does this trust come into the groups?

00:23:16: How does it come into collaboration between the individual participants?

00:23:21: How do you understand that making mistakes is totally part of the small tests

00:23:26: prototypes that are very, very necessary and can only really create things

00:23:33: that are long-term for the organizations used.

00:23:37: I totally agree with that.

00:23:42: I have an aversion to the word "failure culture" because that's already

00:23:46: the meaning of a culture of mistakes, but it's suitable for

00:23:50: cultural values or for the culture of attempts.

00:23:53: Or make it simple, I think "failure culture" is a misguided word.

00:24:00: It's a bit like the "crank insurance".

00:24:03: Exactly, like the "crank insurance".

00:24:05: I think "failure culture" is a very, very important factor.

00:24:13: And you have already mentioned it with experts and experts in other areas.

00:24:20: Do you think that media-for-plies is also a factor that brings the group forward

00:24:26: because they come from different areas?

00:24:29: Absolutely.

00:24:30: You can see there how interdiscipline teams can use the opposite abilities

00:24:37: perfectly and then build on each other.

00:24:40: And you have people who come from the journalistian area,

00:24:43: people who come from tech or design.

00:24:47: That, so to speak, is simply a great team, a great form of collaboration

00:24:54: because these different perspectives come together in great detail

00:24:59: and complement each other.

00:25:00: In the end, it should be a product or the aim of the fellowships

00:25:05: is to create a solution that may be in the journalist or the audiences,

00:25:15: wherever it is, helps in the crisis situation or in the prevention of crises.

00:25:22: That means that in order to create this product or solution best possible,

00:25:27: it needs a good combination of the different stakeholders

00:25:32: who act there on the spot.

00:25:36: We come to a small dilemma because often solutions are thought over

00:25:44: and then put a top-down on certain situations.

00:25:49: Of course, we have the chance to go completely different.

00:25:52: We can talk with a lot of interviews, with a lot of conversations.

00:25:57: What do journalists actually need, but also listening to crisis situations

00:26:05: that somehow consume the media?

00:26:07: What is important to them?

00:26:08: How can a solution really make a difference in their everyday life?

00:26:14: I think that diversity in the team contributes to the fact

00:26:19: that you can jump much simpler into different perspectives,

00:26:23: that you can build empathy for the different users,

00:26:28: and that something like that just arises,

00:26:31: which is more of a bottom-up,

00:26:33: where you really have set yourself apart,

00:26:35: looked in a direction together and said,

00:26:38: what would be important to you and how can a solution look like

00:26:44: that can come out of this program?

00:26:47: The whole thing is now in crisis situations with focus on Afghanistan and Lebanon.

00:26:53: In any case, it would be a blue break for other crisis areas

00:26:58: or crisis situations.

00:27:00: Can something come out of it?

00:27:03: If you look at crisis regions, of course, there are always cultural differences.

00:27:07: There are also historical differences, like the conflicts that have arisen.

00:27:12: At the same time, there are often similar roles.

00:27:18: One of these roles can be the role of a fighter,

00:27:22: a fighter, a soldier, a soldier,

00:27:25: who normally earns her bread every day in the conflict

00:27:31: that she or he is a soldier.

00:27:34: If you compare this role with different regions,

00:27:37: then it is similar in many cases.

00:27:40: There are people who get money to fight for it.

00:27:44: If you think about it, okay, we want to settle a certain conflict,

00:27:49: then you think, yes, all people are interested in peace.

00:27:53: But if you look closely at these different stakeholders,

00:27:59: who are part of the conflict party and who earn their money with it,

00:28:04: then you will quickly realize that the relationship between a soldier and a soldier

00:28:12: and the relationship between families is falling apart.

00:28:13: To believe that a soldier is now, suddenly,

00:28:17: because there is peace, a friezer is very, very short-lived.

00:28:22: That means that this user-centered approach is so important,

00:28:26: because it is also about looking at solutions

00:28:31: and how to create alternatives for the different users

00:28:37: who act in the conflict there.

00:28:41: And how can we, for example,

00:28:44: contribute to more journalistic solutions

00:28:48: that a soldier feels detached in a certain way

00:28:54: and that feeling may help a new way for my family.

00:29:00: And perhaps a simpler approach is more important.

00:29:04: And that's exactly what solutions are about,

00:29:07: which of course work for the two regions we are starting with now,

00:29:13: and then at the same time maybe even have a chance

00:29:18: to get into other areas.

00:29:21: While fellowships were being researched and there were various topics

00:29:26: that were more detailed,

00:29:28: even though we could act a bit,

00:29:31: we are now focusing on dialogue-promoted formats.

00:29:36: So formats that promote dialogue.

00:29:40: Can you give us an insight into what you can imagine?

00:29:45: I would love to.

00:29:46: Dialogue-promoting formats is a format that leads to

00:29:53: either people in a certain region or away from the region,

00:29:59: or journalists who have the chance to make dialogue

00:30:04: that leads to more understanding of each other

00:30:08: for the topics of different conflict parties.

00:30:12: And that there will be barriers that are overcome

00:30:16: that are eventually created and built

00:30:21: and built quite consciously.

00:30:26: The idea behind this selection,

00:30:29: which is now specifically focused on this topic,

00:30:33: comes from many conflicts then arise when you build up barriers.

00:30:41: When you say consciously,

00:30:43: the one party is like that, the other party is like that.

00:30:46: The one party has these values, our party has these values.

00:30:50: And there is a very, very conscious separation that leads to

00:30:55: that of course people feel belong to.

00:30:58: What a very natural need of us people is

00:31:02: that we belong to a certain group.

00:31:05: These dialogue formats or dialogue-promoting formats

00:31:08: are now about researching or finding solutions

00:31:15: to best practices that may have come together with conflict parties,

00:31:21: but also parties that are not at all related to the typical

00:31:26: conflict or peace and conflict research topic.

00:31:31: It can also be in a completely different area.

00:31:33: But where we look closely and say

00:31:36: which formats actually work when parties come together,

00:31:40: can come into a very sitting manner and can look at each other in a conversation.

00:31:45: And now it's time to see what we know,

00:31:49: which new solutions we can possibly also

00:31:52: bring with the help of new technology into the world.

00:31:56: And that's exactly where the fellows and the teams are sitting right now,

00:32:00: to look at that a little bit, to find out for yourself,

00:32:03: to see at the same time where are the chances,

00:32:06: where we might have to turn a second round

00:32:09: and do more research because we haven't yet understood enough

00:32:13: how a certain format works in a certain situation.

00:32:17: That's the job right now, that's super exciting.

00:32:20: There are a lot of different topics coming together,

00:32:22: a lot of creativity is coming into the game.

00:32:25: And that's also so nice, what we had just talked about earlier,

00:32:29: that the team is so diverse that there are many

00:32:32: different strengths and experiences brought into the team.

00:32:38: Thank you very much for your time and for your valuable input.

00:32:42: Thank you very much for your time, thank you for being here.

00:32:46: That was the fourth episode of the Media for Peace podcast

00:32:49: and the next episode will be released in two weeks.

00:32:52: We'll be back then, until then, all the best and we'll be back.

00:32:56: Media for Peace, the podcast for peaceful-oriented journalism.

00:33:02: A production of Media Lab Bayern.

00:33:05: Media for Peace is a cooperation with the DTECHBW,

00:33:09: a centre for digitalisation and technology research of the Bundeswehr

00:33:13: and the University of Bundeswehr München.

00:33:16: .

00:33:17: [BLANK_AUDIO]