Media for Peace #5 Fake News

00:00:00: (Dynamische Musik)

00:00:01: Journalismus der Frieden ermöglicht.

00:00:05: Das ist "Media for Peace",

00:00:09: ein Podcast des Media Lab Bayern.

00:00:12: Sabrina Harper hier, ich begrüße euch zur fünften Folge von "Media for Peace".

00:00:17: Heute mit dem Schwerpunkt Fake News.

00:00:19: Was genau sind denn Fake News?

00:00:21: Und bevor ihr denkt, das weiß ich schon,

00:00:24: wir schauen das noch mal ein bisschen anders an.

00:00:26: Und ganz wichtig, wie kann man eigentlich gegen Missinformation vorgehen?

00:00:31: Der eine oder andere hat in diesem Zusammenhang

00:00:33: vielleicht schon mal das Wort "Die Banking" gehört.

00:00:36: Wenn nicht, ist das auch kein Thema,

00:00:38: denn das erklären wir in dieser Sendung

00:00:40: mit Professor Dr. Christoph Neuberger von der Freien Universität Berlin.

00:00:44: Und vor allem möchte ich auch von ihm wissen,

00:00:46: was man gegen Fake News tun kann.

00:00:48: Und Omit Sobhani ist dabei.

00:00:50: Er ist aus Afghanistan und er erzählt uns,

00:00:53: inwiefern Fake News das Leben in seinem Land prägen.

00:00:56: Omit ist aktuell "Media for Peace Fellow"

00:00:59: und arbeitet im Media Lab an einem Prototypen

00:01:02: für ein innovatives, friedensförderndes, journalistisches Produkt.

00:01:05: Die Leiterin des Media Labs ist Lina Tim.

00:01:08: Sie steht hier neben mir.

00:01:10: Für sie war klar "Innovation Frieden und Media for Peace".

00:01:13: Das ist ganz klar ein Match.

00:01:15: "Media for Peace".

00:01:17: Insights.

00:01:18: Hallo Lina, schön, dass du da bist.

00:01:20: Hi, Sabrina.

00:01:21: Ich hab's eben gerade schon gesagt,

00:01:23: für dich war's sofort ein Match.

00:01:25: "Innovation Frieden und Media for Peace".

00:01:27: Inwiefern kann den Journalismus zum Mehrfrieden beitragen?

00:01:31: Journalismus ist ja vor allem dafür da,

00:01:33: Informationen weiter zu verbreiten.

00:01:35: Und dass tatsächlich alle die Informationen bekommen,

00:01:38: die sie brauchen, um sich eine Meinung zu bilden,

00:01:41: um für sich herauszufinden, was wahr ist, was richtig ist,

00:01:45: was auch vielleicht Werte sind, die man vertreten sollte und kann.

00:01:50: Und das macht Journalismus.

00:01:52: Und es macht Journalismus natürlich besonders schlau

00:01:55: und es gibt auch die Menschen in Bereichen,

00:01:57: wo Konflikte herrschen.

00:01:59: Da gibt es oft zwei Seiten, oder es gibt eigentlich immer zwei Seiten,

00:02:03: und es gibt oft auch beide Seiten,

00:02:05: die man vielleicht so ein bisschen differenzierter betrachten kann.

00:02:08: Und von daher finde ich, Informationen weiter zu verbreiten,

00:02:12: die auch dazu helfen, einfach, dass jeder sich seine Meinung bilden kann.

00:02:16: Das ist mal so die Basis dafür,

00:02:18: dass in Konflikten Leute miteinander reden können

00:02:20: und dann vielleicht die andere Seite verstehen

00:02:23: und sich das mit den Menschen zu verbreiten kommen.

00:02:26: Das Medialab beschäftigt sich ja auch viel mit Innovation.

00:02:29: Inwiefern spielt Innovation in Krisengebieten eine Rolle?

00:02:32: Innovation ist immer so ein Buzzword.

00:02:35: Eigentlich geht es ja vor allem darum, dass neue Dinge entstehen,

00:02:38: dass man vielleicht vorhanden ist, ein bisschen zusammenpuzzled.

00:02:42: Für mich ist Innovation aber auch Sachen besser machen.

00:02:45: Sachen, die vielleicht bisher so mittelgut funktionieren,

00:02:49: mit ein paar neuen Ideen dahin zu bringen,

00:02:51: in Krisengebieten gibt es wahnsinnig viele Probleme zu lösen

00:02:54: und auch zwischen den unterschiedlichen Gruppen,

00:02:57: die sich im Zweifel, Zweigegen überstehen.

00:02:59: Und da kann man, glaube ich, mit neuen Ideen wahnsinnig viel bewegen.

00:03:03: Und deswegen fand ich den Match auch so spannend

00:03:06: und fand dieses ganze Thema.

00:03:08: Wir haben uns schon mal mit Krisenjournalismus beschäftigt.

00:03:11: Am Anfang der Corona-Pandemie, wo das ja so den ersten großen Schub gab,

00:03:14: an "Oh Gott, wir haben eine weltweite Krise,

00:03:17: wie berichten wir eigentlich darüber?"

00:03:19: Das Thema noch mal in so konfliktreichen Regionen mit reinzunehmen,

00:03:22: fand ich für uns total interessant

00:03:24: und finde es eine super Sandbox, um da auch auszuprobieren,

00:03:28: was an neuen Konzepten funktioniert.

00:03:30: Weil oft ist es ja in den Bereichen auch so,

00:03:33: dass gerade der Journalismus oder die Medien

00:03:35: vielleicht mehr hätten machen können.

00:03:38: Also auf jeden Fall, dass was sie gemacht haben,

00:03:41: auch nicht wirklich dazu beigetragen hat,

00:03:43: vielleicht zu deeskalieren, aber den Konflikt,

00:03:45: gerade wenn es um Konflikte zwischen Bevölkerungsgruppen geht,

00:03:48: auch gar nicht erst aufkommen zu lassen oder ein bisschen zu befrieden.

00:03:52: Du hast eben jetzt schon angesprochen, die Corona-Pandemie

00:03:55: und jetzt eben in Krisengebieten, Innovation ist schön und gut,

00:03:58: aber damals, so wie jetzt in Krisengebieten,

00:04:01: hat man da nicht andere Prioritäten als Innovation?

00:04:04: Oder warum sollte man Innovation in der Prioriste

00:04:07: nach weiter oben verschieben?

00:04:09: Ja, das ist ein guter Punkt.

00:04:11: Also wir haben ja auch gerade in Deutschland

00:04:14: so ein bisschen so eine gefühlte Lage von,

00:04:16: alle haben gerade eine andere Priorität als Innovation,

00:04:19: aber wenn man eben so wie ich das tue,

00:04:22: oder wie wir das im Lab vielleicht auch tun,

00:04:24: Innovationen als irgendwie Sachen optimieren,

00:04:27: Sachen besser machen, versteht,

00:04:28: dann gibt es eigentlich da nie einen Grund, das nicht zu tun.

00:04:31: Weil also wenn sich eine Ausgangslage verändert,

00:04:35: dann muss ich erst recht was anpassen und mich anpassen

00:04:38: und vielleicht auch die Medien anpassen.

00:04:40: Wie soll ich das denn machen, ohne mit neuen Ideen zu kommen?

00:04:43: Also da brauche ich ja irgendwas Neues.

00:04:45: Und genau deswegen finde ich, ist Innovation da eigentlich der Punkt.

00:04:49: Also man sollte gar nicht so darüber denken,

00:04:51: jetzt muss ich auch noch Innovation machen,

00:04:53: sondern das ist für mich eher so was, was es sowieso braucht.

00:04:56: Und dann ist es ganz cool, wenn man in so ein Projekt

00:04:59: einfach mal hingehen kann und sagen kann,

00:05:01: okay, wir nehmen das als Tool, als Werkzeug,

00:05:04: auch aus anderen Bereichen,

00:05:06: da kommt ja auch viel aus der Start-up-Szene raus

00:05:08: an den ganzen Methoden, die wir hier verwenden.

00:05:10: Und schauen uns einfach mal an,

00:05:12: wie wir hier von anderen Branchen, von anderen Bereichen lernen können,

00:05:15: das Neues reinzubringen.

00:05:16: Inwiefern würdest du jetzt das Thema Innovation

00:05:19: und Friedensförderung nochmal konkret verknüpfen?

00:05:22: Also wir haben das Projekt Media for Peace.

00:05:24: Was wäre denn dein Wunsch, was da am Ende rauskommen soll?

00:05:27: Mein Wunsch wäre, und der manifestiert sich schon so ein bisschen momentan

00:05:32: da drin, was die Fellows machen bei uns.

00:05:35: Dass ganz viele neue Ideen entstehen und man auch rausfindet,

00:05:39: wie eigentlich an welchen Punkten muss man denn ansetzen,

00:05:44: um mit den Medien unterstützen zu können.

00:05:47: Das Konflikte mindestens mal nicht weitergehen,

00:05:49: idealerweise ein bisschen eingedämmt werden.

00:05:52: Weil ich finde, das kann man machen mit den Medien,

00:05:55: mit Informationen an die Bevölkerung.

00:05:58: Das ist irgendwie so eine Grundvoraussetzung dafür,

00:05:59: dass sich irgendwas bewegt in irgendeine Richtung,

00:06:01: Menschen Informationen in die Hand zu geben,

00:06:03: wie es denn eigentlich ist oder wie die andere Sicht ist.

00:06:05: Was mein Wunsch ist dafür, dass wir auch tatsächlich

00:06:09: mit was rauskommen, am Ende, was so ein Prototyp sein kann

00:06:14: oder so eine Blaupause vielleicht,

00:06:15: die man in vielen anderen Bereichen auch einsetzen kann.

00:06:18: Wir haben zwei sehr gegensätzliche Regionen.

00:06:21: Das ist der Libanon mit seinen ganz eigenen Konfliktfeld.

00:06:23: Das ist Afghanistan mit wieder einem ganz anderen Konfliktfeld.

00:06:26: Aber wir haben so viele Konflikte und Krisenregionen auf der Welt.

00:06:30: Und wenn wir das schaffen, in diesem Projekt ein paar Ideen,

00:06:34: ein paar Lösungsmöglichkeiten rauszufinden,

00:06:37: wie Medien agieren können und wie Journalismus ganz konkret helfen kann,

00:06:41: dass sich Bevölkerungsgruppen annähern, dass sich Konflikte entschärfen,

00:06:45: dann wäre das mega gut, wenn man das nicht nur in diesen Regionen

00:06:48: einsetzen kann, sondern eben auch einfach als Blaupause

00:06:51: im Rest der Welt nutzen.

00:06:52: Und wie diese Blaupause dann aussehen wird,

00:06:55: da gibt es dann hoffentlich eine Einladung und ein Demo-Day.

00:06:58: Auf jeden Fall machen wir das.

00:07:00: Sobald wir rausgefunden haben, wie das aussehen kann,

00:07:02: werden wir es der Welt erzählen.

00:07:04: Ich danke dir, Lina, für deine Zeit.

00:07:06: Sehr gerne, vielen Dank dir.

00:07:07: Und wir halten euch auf dem Laufenden, wie es weitergeht.

00:07:10: Aus Sicht von Lina birgt Media for Peace also eine riesige Chance.

00:07:14: Für sie geht es vor allem darum, Informationen zu den Leuten zu bringen.

00:07:18: Und zwar verifizierte Informationen.

00:07:21: Das geht auch damit ein Herr, was Omid mir erzählt hat.

00:07:24: Intreibt das Thema Fake News nämlich gewaltig um.

00:07:27: Media for Peace. Ganz nah dran.

00:07:31: Hallo, Omid. Good to see you.

00:07:33: I would like to talk to you about the meaning of fake news today.

00:07:37: Thank you so much for having me and this interesting topic

00:07:40: that I really like to talk about.

00:07:42: You're welcome. You are from Afghanistan.

00:07:45: Are you confronted with a lot of fake news over there?

00:07:49: Yes, of course.

00:07:51: For this very interesting topic, I would like to start with my own experience

00:07:56: of encountering with the fake news as a journalist.

00:07:59: I remember back in 2021, when the districts of Afghanistan

00:08:05: were falling to the Taliban one by one.

00:08:08: I remember one day I shared a fake news myself

00:08:12: that I asked some local sources in my province.

00:08:18: If that district fell to the Taliban and they reassured me

00:08:22: that yes, it fell to the Taliban.

00:08:24: And when I shared it on social media, just in a matter of moments,

00:08:29: I found out from other journalists that this news is actually wrong

00:08:33: because the problem was that we didn't have access to the site.

00:08:37: But this is not just the only example that I faced during that time.

00:08:42: This propaganda machine and the people who were creating fake news

00:08:47: really troubled journalists like me to spot fake news

00:08:52: because both the war parties like the Afghan government and the Taliban,

00:08:56: both of them were creating their own narratives using fake news.

00:09:00: So at that time, we really had trouble to find the truth.

00:09:04: So fake news have a really big impact on the people in Afghanistan.

00:09:08: That's a real, real big topic.

00:09:11: Yes, it does. I think generally on a worldwide yes.

00:09:16: But in Afghanistan it plays both with the lives of the people

00:09:19: and also with what the narratives are coming out to people outside of Afghanistan.

00:09:26: I would like to give an example of a very recent news

00:09:29: that the Taliban attacked a hideout

00:09:32: as they claimed that the ISIS in my province in western Afghanistan

00:09:37: and they claimed these people were fighting them

00:09:41: or it's not clear if they were even fighting them,

00:09:44: where the ISIS members.

00:09:46: Because there is no longer any independent media,

00:09:49: it's very difficult to verify this kind of news

00:09:52: and most of the journalists like me are suspicious of the authenticity of these news.

00:09:58: Because they also have the belief that now the United States

00:10:02: is working with the Taliban to counter and combat the ISIS.

00:10:07: So it's more likely that they are creating these kinds of claims

00:10:11: and selling it to the international community.

00:10:13: At the same time killing maybe the former government employees

00:10:17: and at the same time selling their narratives to the international community

00:10:21: that they are now fighting ISIS.

00:10:24: That's really hard to hear.

00:10:26: Thank you for sharing this with us.

00:10:28: So, nowadays there are some tools to help to identify fake news.

00:10:34: Do you also use such tools in Afghanistan?

00:10:38: Honestly, no. I never used in Afghanistan.

00:10:41: And only I learned about the, for instance, Google photo

00:10:45: to the Bank of photo using this tool.

00:10:49: But generally there was no knowledge about these things.

00:10:52: Like I was a journalist at the same time I was also a senior journalism student

00:10:57: and we never had even a topic about fake news in our curriculum.

00:11:02: For all African journalists there were no tools suggested by their newsrooms

00:11:07: or from anyone.

00:11:09: I can say 99% of African journalists never used such devices or such tools.

00:11:14: Okay, is journalism teach on the university

00:11:18: or how do I have to imagine that?

00:11:21: Because you never heard at your education from such tools.

00:11:25: Well, most of the journalists are coming not just from a journalism degree

00:11:31: or background but some are joining from law faculty,

00:11:34: some are joining from literature faculty.

00:11:37: At the first step there is no such regulations

00:11:42: or in the newsrooms that can give the journalists this tool to use it.

00:11:47: Because they are mostly running with the routine daily events that happen

00:11:53: and they rely on local sources and the interviews I had,

00:11:58: most of them said that we just called our contacts to double check this source

00:12:03: and that was the only thing they were doing.

00:12:05: The journalists who were also coming from, like me, from journalism faculty

00:12:11: never learned such thing.

00:12:12: Do you think people are aware of fake news

00:12:16: or do you think fake news are underestimated so far?

00:12:20: I don't agree that they would underestimate

00:12:23: because at the first place this topic of fake news,

00:12:27: you may not believe but in Afghanistan it's very new

00:12:30: and most of the journalists do not even know.

00:12:33: Like what's fake news? How to even spot the fake news?

00:12:37: So most of them are sometimes even haunted by fake news

00:12:42: and I can give you a very good example of the two new journalists

00:12:48: who recently shared a photo from Pashir province of Afghanistan.

00:12:53: Her name was Anise Sheid.

00:12:55: She shared this photo from Pashir province

00:12:57: where the Taliban are clashing with other militant groups.

00:13:02: And she was claiming this picture is from Pashir

00:13:05: and people are fleeing.

00:13:06: While in fact after a few hours the social media users

00:13:11: themselves went and detected that this photo in fact comes from Yemen.

00:13:17: So it was a bad hit for the tooling users at the same time

00:13:21: for the reputation of the journalists that people will,

00:13:24: their trust will decline towards the journalists.

00:13:27: So yeah, it's a very difficult job for them.

00:13:31: But what to do?

00:13:32: So we also mentioned some tools or some social media bubble

00:13:37: that hit down some fake news.

00:13:40: But what could be done against misinformation in Afghanistan?

00:13:46: I think you have noticed from what I said earlier

00:13:49: that a sense of lack of education

00:13:54: and lack of regulations in the newsrooms.

00:13:57: And I think what would really help would be providing workshops

00:14:02: and training them how to use these tools

00:14:05: and maybe also coordinating with the newsrooms

00:14:09: and tell them to use these tools

00:14:11: so that it will help the reputation of their newsroom,

00:14:15: like tooling-us.

00:14:17: And maybe some participation from the people over there

00:14:20: whether I guess it's not that easy

00:14:23: because they are afraid of what could happen.

00:14:26: At the moment, yes.

00:14:28: Any foreign funded or any foreign program from outside

00:14:33: would look very, very suspicious to the Taliban,

00:14:36: especially their intelligence agency.

00:14:38: They would feel like they are now,

00:14:41: these journalists are trained as spies to follow on the Taliban.

00:14:45: But any local program that can really teach the journalists,

00:14:51: I think through the workshops would really help in a local context,

00:14:55: but not like something from outside.

00:14:58: And this would really help.

00:15:00: Because nowadays,

00:15:02: but what I am worried honestly is that even if you provide now these workshops

00:15:08: and these trainings,

00:15:09: still the journalists do not have that independence

00:15:13: to go and verify news.

00:15:14: Because at the end of the day,

00:15:16: they will be faced with the Taliban.

00:15:18: If they uncover a truth and publish it to the public.

00:15:23: So in the fellowship from media for peace,

00:15:26: you and your team are working on prototypes right now.

00:15:31: What do you do at the moment?

00:15:33: Let us know.

00:15:34: We are doing some exciting works.

00:15:37: Because this is like my first experience of brainstorming

00:15:42: and making ideas and testing them and doing lots of research about it.

00:15:47: And we are actually working now on two ideas,

00:15:50: buttons and poplick,

00:15:51: where we are trying to create dialogue from the local people in the poplick spaces.

00:15:58: And we are now testing.

00:16:00: or assumptions if people are really willing to engage with such formats and also

00:16:07: future from stories, which is another interesting topic and it's very new. I think there would be

00:16:14: enough participation as we already received from people that they really want to participate.

00:16:19: It's more, it has more like

00:16:21: journalistic aspect where journalists can benefit the dialogue from these stories where people come together to talk about the future.

00:16:29: We are just looking forward with the result of our

00:16:33: testing in this

00:16:35: prototyping phase. How could such a prototype or

00:16:40: probably the whole media for peace project have an impact on more peace-oriented journalism and help people stay safe in

00:16:50: Afghanistan, for example. We already did the research on Afghanistan, Lebanon as post-cafric country.

00:16:57: What would really help would be studying how these

00:17:01: prototypes that we are already

00:17:04: testing would help and would meet those criterias that are already in

00:17:09: peace-oriented journalism. Of course, we have the criteria and we are testing and sometimes these ideas fail because it cannot

00:17:19: go and then we re-itrate, but still we are on the track to meet these criteria so that we can

00:17:27: produce a peace-oriented

00:17:29: product. So you always iterate so it gets better and better and makes a fit for the countries.

00:17:37: So what's up next? So what you're going to do next with your team?

00:17:41: We are just now going out in the public to test these ideas in real life and see how people would really engage like the

00:17:50: buttons in public, I example before. Today we are going outside and place these objects and see if people are really willing to

00:18:01: share their ideas, if they encounter with these and then coming back and with our teams discuss if this really

00:18:10: goes on or we should

00:18:14: change the idea in a way that can work. So this is basically what we are doing for the next week as well.

00:18:21: Okay, thank you, Amit, for your time just to make sure that people know you're in Germany right now, you're not in Afghanistan at the time.

00:18:30: So I just want to know how long you're going to stay in Germany.

00:18:34: Thank you. It's such a good question at the end of this conversation. I'm living in Germany for almost one year now since last

00:18:42: March. And yes, I'm living here. And since I was evacuated as a journalist from Afghanistan, now I'm beginning my career and life here and

00:18:53: trying to restoring my journalism profession in Germany, which is really fantastic for me like every day.

00:19:02: So I'm so glad we can support you with media for peace. Thanks for your time. Have a nice day and we will see soon.

00:19:09: Thank you so much. Bye.

00:19:12: Fake news is a big factor in crisis areas. Professor Dr. Christoph Neuberger from the Freien

00:19:18: Universität Berlin has the topic of the scientific side.

00:19:22: I was especially interested in what we can do against fake news.

00:19:26: Media for peace. Insights.

00:19:29: Hello Christoph, welcome to the podcast Media for Peace.

00:19:33: Hello Sabrina.

00:19:34: For us today it's about fake news. They have become a global challenge.

00:19:39: Nevertheless, the contexts are different.

00:19:42: What role do fake news play in crisis and war areas?

00:19:46: They play a very big role.

00:19:48: Although it has a long history, you don't say otherwise.

00:19:51: The first victim in a war is the truth.

00:19:55: It has always been manipulated.

00:19:57: With the help of the Internet and especially the social media, it has become much easier.

00:20:02: It's about creating your own advantages,

00:20:06: to convey false impressions about the war situation,

00:20:09: to break the opposite side.

00:20:12: There are many forms of disinformation in war situations.

00:20:15: A famous example is the USA.

00:20:18: During the election, Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, was talked about by many alternative facts.

00:20:25: Or the Brexit, which is also very close to having something to do with social media and information.

00:20:33: We have now focused on Afghanistan and Lebanon for Peace.

00:20:38: Do you have examples from Afghanistan or Lebanon?

00:20:42: In the case of Afghanistan, we have conducted a lot of interviews.

00:20:46: It has been very clear that the conquest of the country through the Taliban,

00:20:52: through the conquest of Kabul, was accompanied by a media campaign,

00:20:57: which played a very big role in the fall.

00:20:59: It was mainly about false impressions about the war situation,

00:21:03: that the Taliban have removed the impression that they are much faster, much more successful,

00:21:08: that they were put in a state of shock and then had no air force,

00:21:15: or at least did not have any thought about it.

00:21:18: This is an example of how you can use social media in a war situation.

00:21:25: In the case of Lebanon, we have to deal with a boss war situation.

00:21:30: We also have elections, so democratic relations.

00:21:35: There we see the typical thing that we can also find from other countries,

00:21:40: find a place for election campaigns, that you try to take influence there.

00:21:43: Of course, the subject of Covid has played a very big role.

00:21:47: The women were mistakenly spread false information.

00:21:49: Maybe we should go back to one step.

00:21:52: We are talking about fake news, alternative facts, as always you want to call it.

00:21:57: Maybe we should define when fake news begins.

00:22:02: It is not like everything is always right in journalism.

00:22:06: A journalist or a journalist can also make mistakes.

00:22:09: Yes, in fact, you have to be careful with this term of the fake news.

00:22:14: It is also a matter of scientific evidence, whether you should use it or not.

00:22:17: It has been admitted, at least in the term of misinformation,

00:22:23: that there is a purposeful spread of false and misleading information

00:22:27: to harm someone, so in the general political context.

00:22:31: This can start with the 30th lie, where everything is found.

00:22:34: But it can also be about taking photos,

00:22:37: so to manipulate the right photos.

00:22:41: It can also be about false information in the wrong context,

00:22:44: so that they are also misinterpreted.

00:22:47: So there are many different forms of misinformation,

00:22:49: which would not include the information that has been mentioned.

00:22:54: That is, the erzheimer, the error in the process,

00:22:58: the question of journalism.

00:23:01: You can also take out certifications,

00:23:05: so if it is about the overspot, if it is about social criticism.

00:23:10: Because in general, the context is clear.

00:23:12: So if you look at animal broadcasts,

00:23:14: you already know exactly how to interpret the information in my fictional broadcast.

00:23:19: Another word that is often used in this context is information war.

00:23:25: Especially in the eyes of Ukraine,

00:23:28: it is often spoken of by the information war.

00:23:30: How far does fake news play a role in this context?

00:23:34: Of course, they play a role,

00:23:36: like in all war-related negotiations of the last 10 to 15 years.

00:23:44: Meanwhile, we have a so-called "fake checking" in many editorial offices.

00:23:51: So the editorial offices start very carefully

00:23:54: in such situations, then also to search for false information,

00:23:58: to check and then also to make sure that in the case of the Ukraine war,

00:24:03: you know very well, if you look at the side of the collective show,

00:24:07: this is one of the most important fake checking organizations in Germany.

00:24:10: There you find a endless list of facts and checks,

00:24:15: where things are placed correctly.

00:24:17: And if we look back at the first Ukraine war 2014,

00:24:20: the end of the M17, this precious plane,

00:24:23: that was a must-have example of how the Russian side was able to operate the information.

00:24:28: There were many different versions,

00:24:31: that were supposedly widespread for the course of the course,

00:24:33: that in the end the impression had to be made.

00:24:36: There are many variants, in no way it was right.

00:24:39: We now know that the Russian side was involved in a legal check-up.

00:24:45: But that was an example of how such strategies were planned.

00:24:50: You just tore it up a bit,

00:24:53: to clarify this fact-checking, to see if something is right.

00:24:58: You often talk about the banking.

00:25:01: In the meantime, you also always hear the word "pre-banking".

00:25:04: So it is generally not only to react when a false report is in the process,

00:25:10: but also to clarify beforehand,

00:25:14: so that people can actually assess the information consumed.

00:25:19: Is something right or wrong?

00:25:21: Is that likely or is that unlikely?

00:25:24: Can you explain a little more about this approach,

00:25:27: to this "de-banking", "pre-banking"?

00:25:29: Yes, in fact, this "pre-banking" and to assume that people

00:25:35: are in a pre-impf and that certain factors are causing,

00:25:39: before you meet them and then perhaps keep them for real,

00:25:43: can be done in principle, that it is also really effective.

00:25:46: The question is, would it be a very motivated to go to the "Fact-checking" website regularly?

00:25:51: And basically just to see what is new.

00:25:54: But it is effective, that has been proven.

00:25:56: There is a lot of research on the banking,

00:25:59: as to how to properly apply it.

00:26:02: There is also a "de-banking handbook" for editorial work,

00:26:06: where these research results are also systematically prepared

00:26:10: and then are given very practical recommendations,

00:26:14: how to proceed.

00:26:16: That is a total of four-step procedure.

00:26:19: First of all, you can say very clearly and simply, very specifically,

00:26:23: what is the nature of plausibility, what is the right one.

00:26:26: Then, and that is very important, you should only talk about the fake news once.

00:26:32: You should not repeat it, so that this false information is not yet strongly in the head.

00:26:38: So only once, that is a very important rule.

00:26:40: You should also explain how this fake news has come about.

00:26:44: So, who is behind it and who wants to manipulate public opinion.

00:26:48: And then you should repeat the correct version several times,

00:26:53: including the explanation and therefore exactly the correct version.

00:26:57: Then you can go from this so-called "backfire effect" to the "back"

00:27:01: that you achieve exactly the opposite of what you want to achieve,

00:27:03: if you want to make a fake news right.

00:27:06: Can this handbook be downloaded by everyone or how do you get this handbook?

00:27:09: That is available on the Internet.

00:27:11: Lewandowski is the first author.

00:27:13: But if you enter the banking handbook,

00:27:16: then you can download it as a PDF.

00:27:18: It is almost 20 pages long, so it is really very compressed and presented like that.

00:27:23: So that you can orient yourself well.

00:27:25: And how do you stand for this pre-banking approach?

00:27:28: I can also imagine that it is so placed in the journalism field regularly,

00:27:35: that we all get on it to place this fake news.

00:27:38: I know that there is not a very attractive reading material.

00:27:43: But it is a real form to warn people.

00:27:47: I can only imagine that you are in a crisis situation.

00:27:50: It can also happen in the extreme part of people's lives,

00:27:53: that you send something like that in advance,

00:27:56: no idea, per smartphone, as a short distribution,

00:27:59: so that you also get the wrong information.

00:28:02: Okay.

00:28:03: If we now think back to the Lebanon and Afghanistan, for example,

00:28:08: these are crisis areas in which people have really problems

00:28:13: to get information.

00:28:15: I have already spoken to a fellow who just told me

00:28:20: that he himself as a journalist has even sent false messages,

00:28:25: because he simply did not have the opportunity to check that

00:28:28: and in his journalistic education,

00:28:30: you did not even talk about tools to, for example,

00:28:34: check in fact.

00:28:36: What could you do to get secure information about people in crisis areas?

00:28:42: Yes, that is of course a very big challenge.

00:28:44: And that is also a question we would ask each other in our project media

00:28:49: for peace.

00:28:50: It is important that you reach the people at all,

00:28:53: that you use the channels that are actually used,

00:28:57: otherwise the best offers will not bring.

00:28:59: That means, I think, the first step that you take out,

00:29:02: which social media will be used,

00:29:04: but also which classical media, radio, for example,

00:29:07: or television will be used,

00:29:09: about which people can actually achieve what can

00:29:12: of course also change quickly in the war situation.

00:29:14: So the question of availability or electricity or other things

00:29:18: that can also be cut off from the information supply.

00:29:22: The second is of course that you should communicate with high credibility.

00:29:25: And credibility cannot be created from now on.

00:29:29: It is important to then win those who are simply given this credibility.

00:29:34: That is very important.

00:29:36: You may not always be able to do that,

00:29:38: that you can also attack such people.

00:29:40: Then you should, I think, do everything,

00:29:43: and there are also rational rules for that,

00:29:45: how to communicate so that you can also appear as credibility.

00:29:49: So, for example, that you are sceptical, that you are recognizable,

00:29:52: that you have no bias,

00:29:53: that you are now on the one hand now for one of the war parties,

00:29:58: that you are so far away, that it is independent and neutral.

00:30:02: And that you also make very clear, particularly,

00:30:04: the part of transparency,

00:30:06: where you have the information.

00:30:07: And that's why you have the information that continues,

00:30:09: also for real, and what is also being checked.

00:30:12: That you can, for example, if you communicate digitally,

00:30:15: also link the sources, so that you can make a picture of it yourself.

00:30:20: Or that you also have to prove that there is repeat information,

00:30:25: or that the credibility card is lower,

00:30:27: that you are simply not yet aware of it.

00:30:29: But that can also be a proof for the audience that it is seriously worked on,

00:30:33: and that you are included in the usual propaganda tone,

00:30:37: which is often found on websites.

00:30:39: We have that in Germany, which is linked to RT-Deutsch,

00:30:41: so this Russian propaganda offer,

00:30:44: and you could see that very well,

00:30:46: how you were then exploited with some raffiness false information.

00:30:50: Thank you very much, Christoph, for your tips and your input.

00:30:53: You're welcome.

00:30:54: That was the fifth episode of Media for Peace, the podcast.

00:30:57: Next time, of course, we will hear again from a fellow

00:31:01: what the prototypes are currently doing and where the journey is going.

00:31:04: My name is Sabrina Harper and we will be back in two weeks,

00:31:08: if you need more information about the project

00:31:10: or want to hear another episode of Media for Peace, the podcast,

00:31:14: just visit media-lebb.de,

00:31:18: go there under the program and there you will find Media for Peace

00:31:21: and there everything is assembled for you.

00:31:24: See you soon, I look forward to seeing you.

00:31:27: Media for Peace, the podcast for peaceful-oriented journalism.

00:31:32: A production of Media Lab Bayern.

00:31:35: Media for Peace is a cooperation with the DTECHBW,

00:31:39: a center for digitalization and technology research of the Federal Government

00:31:43: and the University of the Federal Government of Munich.

00:31:46: Media for Peace.

00:31:48: Media for Peace.

00:31:51: Media for Peace.

00:31:53: Media for Peace.

00:31:55: Media for Peace.

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